A lesson from the blogging elite: there are many ways to the top

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Session Name: 4.1 – Lessons From The Blogging Elite
Ernie Sander

Andrew Sullivan

Andrew Ross Sorkin

Maria Popova

Tim Ferriss

Announcer 00:00
Paraphrase kiss, you want celebs, we got celebs. If we have Lessons from the Blogging Elite, it’s going to be a discussion moderated by Ernie Sander. He’s the Executive Editor of GigaOM and paidContent, and he’s going to be talking with Tim Ferriss, the author of the 4-Hour series books; Maria Popova, the founder of Brain Pickings; Andrew Ross Sorkin, columnist for the New York Times, founder and editor-at-large at DealBook and Host, Squawk Box, CNBC; and Andrew Sullivan, editor of The Dish. Please welcome, Lessons from the Blogging Elite.

Ernie Sander 00:43
Thank you all for staying around. You won’t be disappointed, this is a true rock star panel here. These are– if you’re a kid and you want to be a business person, you may be want to be Sheryl Sandberg. If you’re a basketball player, you’ve got to jump doing jump shot. Maybe you want to be – what do you want to be? You want to be pop here, because I’m from Boston. These guys, if you’re a kid, you want to be a digital personality, you want to be a digital star. These people, you want to be – they have, tens of thousands of – to their followers, they’re driving the conversation, their book deals, TV gigs, they’ve got the whole thing, so this should be fun.
Ernie Sander 01:26
Andrew Sullivan, let me start with you. You guys have mostly all be in the news recently, so this will be predictly topical, but you maybe more so been on the news. You’ve decided recently to go off on your own and start a company, and put up a payroll and try to build a big business.
Andrew S 01:50
It’s not a payroll.
Ernie Sander 01:52
It’s not a payroll?
Andrew S 01:52
It’s a meter.
Ernie Sander 01:53
It’s a meter, okay. A meter payroll, can we call that?
Andrew S 01:56
No. We call it a meter [chuckle].
Ernie Sander 01:58
Okay, a meter.
Andrew S 01:59
It’s a premium meter.
Ernie Sander 02:02
You’ve been– the first 24 hours, you had a goal of $900, 000 that you wanted to raise, and the first 24 hours, you were thoroughly the way there, you were gobsmacked as you said. And then, things have been a little slower since, you’ve been tweaking the pricing a little bit, and the meter. Where are you now on that 900, 000 goal?
Andrew S 02:25
We are at 672, 000, so approaching 700, 000. Of course you’re right, once you’ve gotten past the big surge of total dish heads, getting other people to cuff online is [inaudible] and difficult. I don’t want to nag too much, and the meter is deliberately very leaky because I don’t want to lose touch with the rest of the bloggers here… and we haven’t actually. The interesting thing is that we expected a real tradeoff in traffic, in pages. We haven’t. We have a huge number of people, this month was around 800, 000 people who have visited the site in a month that have not started a meter in any way.
Ernie Sander 03:22
So you have about 25, 000 people that–
Andrew S 03:24
Twenty-five thousand subscribers, and to some extent, I like that number better than dollar numbers, because that’s a great little magazine.
Ernie Sander 03:37
One of the reasons that you’ve attracted attention other than you’ve been around, you’re a bit of celebrity, you are very transparent about what you are trying to do. To your credit layout, all the numbers, now you’re to live by the numbers, so you laid out the 900, 000 and it’s going to be a little tougher to get there than you might have thought. You’ve been tweaking the formula a little bit and it looks like you may have to tweak the formula a little bit more. When you wake up in the middle of the night, which I’m sure you do now that you’re a business person, what are tweaks are in store? How else are you going to get over the line?
Andrew S 04:10
I really don’t know. We knew that this was a long-term venture, and I’m a big believer – one of the posters we had back at the Atlantic on our little cubicle is a shepherd fairy photograph of Charles Darwin, whose beard – I am slowly trying to emulate. The slogan underneath was very gradual change we can believe in. I’m not panicked, I’m not alarmed, we can pay our way through next February, right now. We need to think about how we want a better – monetize this in different ways, whether we want to scale back a little bit in what our ambitions might be. Maybe it’s going to take a little longer than we thought to get those readerships. The one thing I’m not going to change or tweak is a core-advertising free, sponsored-content free, lots of wide space, simple blog which people pay for.
Ernie Sander 05:18
We had a lot of conversation earlier, I don’t think you’re here for, but it went on and on about native advertising. I think Maria too have gone the records being religiously opposed that advertising – but you’re saying now, you will not walk back from that.
Andrew S 05:32
Ernie Sander 05:33
Even if the numbers don’t–
Andrew S 05:34
Boastful advertising is not native advertising. Advertising is a total legitimate, ethical way of funding journalism. Native advertising is an absolute betrayal of the core principles of journalism–
Ernie Sander 05:47
Could you imagine–
Andrew S 05:48
Ernie Sander 05:49
Could you imagine running been around on your–
Andrew S 05:51
Yes, absolutely. I’ve not said, no ads ever. Specifically said, no, I love advertising and it’s great. I just don’t know whether it’s worth the trouble and expense that a very small group of people were putting out a blog when we have 25, 000 people prepared to support us independently, who wouldn’t rather not have to heal with advertising agencies [chuckle]?
Ernie Sander 06:18
Does the–
Andrew S 06:18
I mean, no offense.
Ernie Sander 06:21
[laughter] No, you’ve also– because you’ve been so transparent about the numbers and I was – which has been fascinating. I have to– the 900, 000 include– you’re getting paid now or you’re not getting paid?
Andrew S 06:29
Right now–
Ernie Sander 06:29
You’ve got a staff of eight and you’re paying healthcare, I can see the numbers add up.
Andrew S 06:33
That would include everything, including me.
Ernie Sander 06:36
It tells what you’re making?
Andrew S 06:37
I’m making zero right now. This was all going into the company [chuckle].
Ernie Sander 06:40
So you’re not getting a salary, okay.
Andrew S 06:41
No, I’m not taking a salary. I put my savings into the company. Look, I did this for nothing for six years, because I love it. I would do this– I shouldn’t say this [chuckle] because it’s weak in the argument. I do this for free. I love this. To be able to write for million people a month and have that kind of readership and that kind of engagement, it’s every writer’s fantasy, and not have to deal with anybody else. That’s why I do it. For me, to figure out in the business side is more about figuring out a way to save journalism online from its predators, which are currently digesting it.
Ernie Sander 07:30
Let me work my way down to the other Andrew. You’ve got a pretty sweet little gig, I have to say here [chuckle]. Is there anything missing from your life at this point?
Andrew RS 07:42
I’m pretty satisfied.
Ernie Sander 07:45
Would you ever run out and do in Andrew Sullivan or – you look across, you can see Henry Blodget, does that make you jealous at all?
Andrew RS 07:52
It’s a great question. I will tell you something I thought about for a very, very long time. There were periods when I started DealBook in 2001, probably two, three, and four years after that, where almost every year I said to myself, should I be taking this on the road, is there more upside, what could it be? Ultimately, for me personally and for the site, the product, the report, I thought that being inside the Times was the place for it, for a couple of reasons.
Andrew RS 08:27
The first was– to me, New York Times as a platform, allowed us to scale much quicker than we ever could in any other way. Now, is it occasionally more of your product? Yes. Is it occasionally harder to innovate? Yes. Is it harder potentially to make investments in the business? Yes, in some cases in knowing others, because the Times have been very supportive of it, there have been times where I’ve had to really push to get that support, and maybe if you’re outside you’d be able to get it faster but maybe would be slower.
Andrew RS 08:27
I always wanted to create a site that actually wasn’t ultimately about me. Some people have sites that are about themselves or it’s really about their writing. I wanted to create something about a sensibility, maybe it’s my sensibility at some level, but I wanted to create a site where if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, this thing would last for 20 and 30 years. To be able to hire other really talented journalist and put them into this environment, being part of the New York Times has really helped with that. We’ve been able to take some – what I think of is the Yankees. Create the Yankees, picking off people from the Wall Street Journal and all sorts of other publications. I’m not sure if I was on my own, I could’ve done. I don’t want to say to myself assured, I’m just saying that Times as a platform is really that strong. I’ve been thrilled to have them as the home for this, and frankly, the piggyback off of what’s been my home since I’ve been 18 years old. That’s the other thing. I started there when I was a kid. It is my home in any ways.
Ernie Sander 10:00
When you look at Blodget, do you think he’s going to succeed?
Andrew RS 10:05
Henry is a friend. I’ve had a huge admiration for what Henry has done. We actually published Henry on DealBook very early on, after some of his problems before the business started and began. It’s a tough business, that’s the other that we’ve learned, which is – we’ve made it worked in the context – inside the New York Times with a big organization that has a big sale staff, that has all of these things. When you’re on your own, it’s a tougher thing to do. The question that I have is, for him, what is the growth mean, is it a sustainable growth, and can advertising on its own support that? If not advertising, is the product that he’s created enough to actually support a paid model, because so much of its aggregation? This is the same issue by the way for helping to post and so many other sites. By the way, there are components of DealBook which are huge aggregation pieces. Can you actually charge other people for that?
Ernie Sander 11:08
Let me ask you one other thing. Putting a different how to – to say you’re Jill Abramson, who talked recently about how the Times wants to make more of their micro branch and celebrities, I assume you’d be on that list, you and Nate Silver, Nick Kristof, and people like that, there’s a lot of talents of people at Times. If you’re Jill Abramson, how do you prevent people from making a different decision than you did, which is – and doing in Andrew Sullivan and just leaving and taking their small teams with them, their brands, and – are those people replaceable at the Times? Should they’d be doing more– this is your chance to ask for money, by the way.
Andrew RS 11:46
No– look, I’m sure you could do all sorts of things with contracts and other things. I think that the institution on to itself is – it’s an environment that’s really been pretty good to its people. By the way, they’ve found interesting and clever ways to allow people to grow inside the organization. For example, they’ve allowed me to go off and I host a TV show every morning. There’s been some flexibility there.
Andrew RS 12:13
My sense is that the New York Times is going to ultimately do two things and hopefully, we’re going to have to do two things really well. One is, do general really well, but then we’re going to really have to this well. Whether that’s about star reporters or whether that’s about doing it more systemically, but I do think that that’s the road we’re going down and that there’s a lot of opportunities in places that we have not even began to dive into.
Ernie Sander 12:39
Maria, you feel exposed here earlier. I don’t know if you guys got a chance to say hi to each other [chuckle], but there was a–
Maria Popova 12:46
We did last month.
Ernie Sander 12:47
You did, okay. There was a little bit of a [inaudible] between the two of you. I feel it’s rude, not one post but two posts talking about your revenue from affiliate, Amazon affiliate links, and talking about how you should be more transparent and talking about it. I thought it’s an interesting conversation about the Tip Jar which is – what one might call what you do, asking for donations but not making the mandatory versus what Andrew does, which is saying – at a certain point, you’re going to hit this wall and you have to pay for it. I have a couple of different questions in there. Is there a difference between advertising, native advertising, affiliate links? Is there an important distinction between those things?
Maria Popova 13:43
Ernie Sander 13:44
What is it?
Maria Popova 13:44
It is a difference of intention. Ultimately, an ad exists so that it would sell a product. If it doesn’t sell the product, the ad would not exist, it defeats the purpose. When I write about a book – bear in mind, I started Brain Pickings when I was in college. I started as a record of my own learning. When I write about something, it’s because I’ve engaged with it, I’ve learned from it, and I’m recording that. Whether or not someone buys that book from the Amazon link, it doesn’t really change what I write about. Also, by the way, which it feels – any of the other people didn’t actually mentioned, I always provide a public library link right next to the Amazon link which none of the other sites that I looked at used Amazon links, which is the majority of the internet, basically, I haven’t seen. It really doesn’t make much of a difference to me whether people buy it. If it were an ad– if you look at something like native advertising, it would – okay, let’s say BuzzFeed does, they wouldn’t get paid for that piece of content. If it didn’t sell or it didn’t do the click-through, whatever the metric agreed upon that trick is, so it’s a complete difference of intention ultimately.
Ernie Sander 14:51
We’re talking about Andrew Sullivan earlier, he’s laid out in a lot of detail all the numbers that he’s trying for and he’s given us updates all in the way. You do your blog which has been usually successful. You’re a machine. You do it in among a day job and you’ve had – I don’t even know when, you have to schedule time – but is it important for you to be – you ultimately did this, put them at the bottom of the page that you have this affiliate relationship, is it important that you as a blogger who has income talk more about how much you’re making from which different sources? The debate with Felix was, okay look, if you’re making this money on the side from Amazon, it might be significant, it might not, and you’re asking for donations, is it important to tell to people that you’re asking for donation for how money you’re making over here so that they can judge – does Maria really need my money or not, what was your conclusion about that?
Maria Popova 15:54
If I were running a business like Andrew’s, he essentially running a startup, it would be important. What I do, I’ve always done for essentially in audience of one, myself. It’s really wonderful for me to see other people engaged with it, but ultimately, on my own audience and I’m not a business, I’m not a media company, and everything else, has been a byproduct of what I do. When it comes at a disclosure– first of all, I didn’t realize that – let me back track. When the whole Felix thing came up, I’ve felt very shocked by it because I’d seen Amazon links and any major site that I’ve read over the years, including [Slaid?], [then your republic?], Open Culture, Mother Jones, everyone that links Amazon is the links and I’d never seen any disclaimer.
Maria Popova 16:37
Then, this guys that I know, Dan Lewis, who by the way runs a really nice email newsletter called Five Things I Learned Today, or What I Learned Today, or something like that, who works for Sesame Street… pointed out to me that buried in the Amazon terms of service is a paragraph of actual language they make you use that you’re supposed to use, and I have no idea. Of course, I put that – humanize language a little bit. Then when I went back on all the other sites, it didn’t – I couldn’t find anywhere on them. Then I thought, okay, well that’s a little escape goat, but – whatever the case might be. Ultimately, when it comes down to is that, the people who donate because they think I’m living under a bridge with my MacBook Air typing all day [chuckle]–
Ernie Sander 17:20
Although you do have a real self-paid background, you work your way through college and–
Maria Popova 17:24
I did. I was–
Ernie Sander 17:25
Made your way through college and–
Maria Popova 17:25
I was broke. I was flat broke until about the end of 2010, early 2011, which is not that long ago, yeah, about spring of 2011. Unfortunate enough to not be broke right now, but either way, the people who donated because – they see a shared sensibility in what I stand for in the world and what they stand for. They sense– Exupery said that love is not gazing each other’s eyes, it’s peering together in the same direction. I think that’s very much true of readership – your audience. When your audience feels that you’re together peering in the same direction, there’s a real sense of belonging. That’s what they pay for, that’s what they support. It’s not some transactional thing of – you know, I’m going to pay X amount for this book or this article and see how much she gets or… I don’t think that people who really want to support or doing any kind of math in their head like that.
Ernie Sander 18:23
But doesn’t NPR do pledged to drive – for example, where they say, we’re trying to reach X today, we need another Y to get there. Would you ever talk more openly about how much you’re making, what you need to run your business, that kind of thing, or is that not a discussion you’d ever–
Maria Popova 18:23
If it becomes a business, I might. For example, in late 2011, my server maxed out, the first thing that I had, and I couldn’t afford the actual more powerful servers and so I put it out. They’re saying, I can’t really afford for this site to keep running. Then I upgraded to Media Temple and had better service, and what not. That was a specific goal… But right now, I’m fortunate to be able to afford anything I need which is mostly books. I just did my taxes and I spent an enormous amount of money last year on books, which I didn’t realized because the Amazon “buy now” thing is a dangerous thing, just beware of the one click two-day delivery [chuckle]. As long as I can afford to do what I do, which it gives me enormous joy like Andrew said, I love doing it. I wouldn’t do anything else for any other reason. If I can do it, then I don’t need to pledge for, drive for more.
Ernie Sander 19:40
Tim, your marketing with – help Andrew out here, Andrew Sullivan. He’s got $300, 000 or whatever, he’s got to – what is he doing, what could he be doing to sell himself better? Are there things that he could be doing?
Tim Ferriss 19:59
It’s very difficult for– in 12 hours or less.
Ernie Sander 20:01
Tim Ferriss 20:03
Four hours or less. It’s difficult to give advice – number one, I don’t have a very complete information of the business, but also because I run a very different show, it’s me and my executive system. She helps to moderate comments, I’m the only who response to comments… at least as an author. I have a general approach to – if you want to call it monetizing the blog, although that’s not my first priority, and that is I have free and I have extremely high priced. For instance, none of my content on the blog has ever been charge for. That’s 400 plus posts, and I’ve written almost all of them myself. The last one was 8000 words. Is there substance of pieces for the most part?
Tim Ferriss 20:51
I’ve been criticized by a lot of my friends, whether authors or – information, product creators, or fill in the blank about not monetizing. When I do choose to monetize, I give one example, these two years I did an event in Napa, which was limited to 200 people and it was on the future of content marketing. It’s $10, 000 a person, and 750 books were sold out, so you can get enough.
Ernie Sander 21:16
What’s in your blog is a pure marketing vehicle. It sells you, and then so you can go and charge $10, 000 ahead.
Tim Ferriss 21:22
No, that was never the intention. This might sound probably in a light, but the blog initially was created to help support the launch of the first book. Literally sat down, I remember the day after Christmas, prior to my book coming out in April 2007, so this was December 26, 2006. I had interviewed best-selling authors from my own knowledge so that I could have a successful launch. There’s initial print around 12, 000 copies. That’s successful, amazing beyond my wildest dreams is selling 12, 000 copies. They said, “Well, the two things that seem to work are radio, specifically NPR, and blogs. Radio is becoming less relevant and bloggers becoming more relevant.” I was like, “Well, I have to figure out blogs then I guess.” I went to other press and I now advise them for full disclosure but, automatically it is. It became a lot more than that. I do enjoy the process of writing. I learn from my readers. If I put up a post, half the motivation, is so that I hear back from people to know more than I do. I put up a post about animation, I hear back from somebody works at Marvel, somebody works at Pixar. That’s what fills me to put up more posts.
Ernie Sander 22:31
That’s a great bridge to my next question which is – you guys all do – you have multimedia careers, so how do you think about blogging versus TV, versus books, versus Twitter, versus – do you think about in your mind or two hours for this, three hours for this, six months for this, this satisfies this audience, this satisfy this audience. Do you think about it that way? Any of you.
Tim Ferriss 22:57
I don’t think about them as being different audiences. They are one in the same, for the most part. I would say that I enjoy very short-term projects and I enjoy long-term projects. That’s how I make the distinction. The books to me are singular-focused pieces of work that I would hope would last decades. They’re intended to remain for a long time and continue to be relevant. The blog is where I experiment. I do a lot of self-experimentation for the books, but in terms of writing style, content and everything, I test all of that at Facebook, Twitter, on my blog. By the time it goes in the book, it is embedded by tens of thousands of people. I know it will work.
Ernie Sander 23:42
Is that what you guys– do you use the web as a testing ground for bigger ideas, for bigger projects, for bigger–
Tim Ferriss 23:48
I had one quick–
Ernie Sander 23:49
Sure. Yeah, of course.
Tim Ferriss 23:50
I do not pull my audience and let that result determine what I write. I decide on the five or six things, I would really enjoy writing that or exploring and then I use my readers to help choose the one or two that have the highest likelihood of success.
Maria Popova 24:07
I think there’s a certain data judgment embedded in the idea that somehow writing on the web is inferior to our training for writing offline. I got approached a fair amount by people to write a book and I have no interest in it, because I love books and obviously, I write about books, 90% of what I write about. For me, the medium is not the key thing, it’s how you communicate, record, analyze, think about, play out ideas. At this point in my life, if I were to write the kind of book that I would like to write, it would mean putting on hold the very thing that makes me excited to get up in the morning and grateful to go to sleep at night. I don’t want to do.
Maria Popova 24:49
I think it’s very individual to say that somehow it would be a better or a bigger thing to do to write a book. I just don’t– for me, that’s not true. Having any sort of cookie cutter hierarchy of media, needs and the priorities, at this point in time, is dated.
Ernie Sander 25:08
Anybody else?
Andrew RS 25:10
I think about this all the time, and I live a very bizarrely structured life in terms of – my life literally between 5:00 in the morning and 9:00 in the morning, is a TV life and I have to think a lot about what’s going on, show ends at 9:00, so then I can start thinking about other things and then I might have to think about the blogging life, and then I’m going to have to think about the column. I am definitely trying out different things and they all come back to help each other in different ways–
Ernie Sander 25:36
Other distinct audiences?
Andrew RS 25:38
There are, but there’s definitely overlap, but I’ll find myself during a three-hour TV show trying out different ideas on people… live in front of other people, asking different questions, trying to figure out, does that work, is that right? Then, maybe that ends up working into a column later, or maybe I’m educating myself on something else. All of these mediums have a different self life. That’s actually the biggest thing that I found, which is – I look at TV, and I think TV – TV is skywriting. When you look at, initially, there’s a huge wild factor. It can have a huge impact on you. For that moment, it’s like, wow. Guess what, the show is over, it’s over, more often than not.
Andrew RS 26:20
You can then write a blog post, and it probably – definitely in skywriting but it may not have that – it may have longevity and may not, and then sometimes I go around a column where a big feature story than can live for a very long time. Then obviously you write a book if it works, you hope it lives forever. Each of them, I think an opportunity to inform the other.
Ernie Sander 26:42
Anybody have questions? A few minutes left.
Andrew S 26:45
I was going to–
Ernie Sander 26:46
I’m sorry.
Andrew S 26:47
[chuckle] It’s okay. Now that I am asking people to pay, everything I want to do is going to be in the blog and that includes televisions. I think it’s a much better use of my time as a pundit speaking for three minutes, to get the readers to ask a lot of questions than a TV host would, for me to put the answers right up there myself. I’m barely on TV at all anymore. Also, the blog is just– we put up 50 posts a day, 250 posts a week on breaking news. I cannot get away from it. I really don’t have the option of another life. This is my life, whether I like it or not. I like it actually, by in large. The only key at that point is finding a way to stay healthy and alive. I’m sure Maria [chuckle]–
Ernie Sander 27:42
That would help other–
Andrew S 27:43
The sheer passion that this amazing interactive conversation you’re having, this mass intimacy that you’re involved with, is engrossing that you are sucked into it all the time. I’ve always said, if it turns out the blogging kills people, then I will be the first person to go, [laughter] right? It’s 13 years–
Ernie Sander 28:08
Any productions about [inaudible]?
Andrew S 28:11
I don’t know. Seriously, it’s genuinely an issue. It’s genuinely an issue about your health, your life, your balance, how you do these things, you are still a human being and I think the great – what’s so wonderful about blogging is that it’s human beings. We’re alive, we’re breathing. We feel sad some days. We feel happy – others… I got to a funeral one day. The whole point is freedom of expression, not monetization of content. If we can monetize – what I’m trying to do with – unlike Maria, is because I think – I really respect her approach, and I did it myself. There comes a point though which you’re asking large numbers of people, what should I earn for living? That’s a really excruciatingly private thing to do [chuckle]. You have a right to say what’s your business. But if you make it a business, and you put that LLC between you, the blogger, and the public, then you could start being more professional about it. You tell them as much as possible.
Ernie Sander 29:09
That’s my next question. Do you have the stomach to go and build a business here? Maria says, she is not a business person. She does this because she loves it. She has another job.
Maria Popova 29:20
I am a business person. I have been a business person, but this is not–
Ernie Sander 29:25
Right, the blogging, what you do on the web on your site is not a business. You’ve decided to go in a business. You have eight people now. Let’s say, you hit the 800, 000, 900, 000 at a certain point, unless you just want to cap it at that, everybody figures, what can I do next? We’re trying to think–
Tim Ferriss 29:39
No, I think that’s–
Ernie Sander 29:40
Tim, it seems that you’re trying to max out your business. You’re coming up with new book ideas, I don’t know what’s after 4-Hours, so the question of whether you want to build a business or whether you just want to – it’s a lifestyle choice. I don’t know.
Tim Ferriss 29:57
I’m not trying to max out my business. I build things when it’s exciting enough to build and then I cross my fingers [chuckle].
Ernie Sander 30:05
But you have business ideas, you would continue to–
Tim Ferriss 30:06
No, mostly in startups. I make more from the startups that have come to me through the blog than I ever make from writing.
Ernie Sander 30:13
Investing and startups?
Tim Ferriss 30:14
That’s right.
Andrew S 30:15
The wonderful thing about our model, we haven’t got Venture Capital, we don’t have to grow if we don’t want to. We could even shrink. That’s not–
Ernie Sander 30:27
You’d be happy with that?
Andrew S 30:28
Yes, I’m not ultimately like Maria, I’m a writer who is thrilled that this technology will get my words without any interference with that many people. I’m interested in having actually pay my rent. And, maybe, if we can do that to set a model for other people to follow through this free media system that can really unleash journalism and give a new life so that some things left after the wreckage of the con industry.
Ernie Sander 30:59
All right, it’s getting waved off here. Thank you all, that was fascinating.
Andrew S 31:02
Ernie Sander 31:02
Thank you.

Tim Ferriss 31:06
That’s great.
Ernie Sander 31:06
Thanks a lot. Thank you for coming. It was a great–
Announcer 31:11
Thanks everybody. I can’t wait for that law and order episode with the bloggers’ den [laughter].